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Posted by: jillbug74 10/30/04 10:41 AM

I just want to tell everyone there is some really good advice out here..if you take it. I did not.

Short story...my fiance broke our engagement and did not want to date for a while. We were together for four years. For four years, even though he did EVERYTHING to make me feel loved, I did everything to test that love - even cheating once. I guess I didn't believe I deserved it? Anyhow, I guess my negativity, doubting and unsupporting him got too bad. He moved out and asked that I talk to someone about us and my unhappiness.

A week later he went to counseling with me and asked me to lunch. We talked a bit that month and he never stopped telling me he loved me. Then he told me that with time he thought we could work things out and he hoped to move back in eventually - but he needed time and did not want to feel pressured. Then his brother from Virginia moved in "unexpectedly" with him and I started doubting everything he said because he would not return my calls for that week.

So, what did I do? Exactly what louise told me not too. I called and was all weepy. I then went over there. I found out he lied to me about his brother moving down being "unexpected". He said he didn't think I would understand and did not want to hurt me or have drama...but drama is what he got when I realized he lied...because what if everything he had been telling me was a lie? It just reconfirmed (to me) that he didn't love me and I was right to test it all those years.

So that night led to it being over for good. He told me he would always love me but love was not enough. He did not like who he was around me when I am like this and wanted me to leave him alone. He said if it was meant to be, then if we talk again years to come it might work out. But for now...he wants me to go away. If I love him like I say I do, I will want him to be happy and he is happier when I am not around. And like that...he gave up four years.

I am devestated and feel so stupid. I am so mad at myself for not listening to everyone. And most of all I am sooo scared of repeating my mistakes and being alone forever. I feel out of control and there is still a little piece that things I can call him and make him chance mind. But I know that is a wrong and crazy thought.

I just wanted to share..I guess now, I need to start posting on the starting over board - heh?

Posted by: luv4dvd315 10/30/04 12:38 PM

Gosh, Jill. You sound just like me and a lot of other "uninformed" women out there. Don't beat yourself up. It's done and you can't take it back. All you can do is learn from the experience and try not to repeat those insecure actions. You see, I had been married only once and for almost 18 years so I had no idea what caving was, etc. My ex-husband never did that, or if he did I was simply unaware of it. When I found out about M/V and started reading the books and message boards on this site, it was too late. I had already done the damage with my desperate acts to hang onto my relationship with D. That is what I told my D in my last letter to him, that if it my new knowledge about the differences between men and women were too late for our relationship then he could rest assured that I would have happier, healthier relationships in the future. There is sooooo much to learn and you would be surprised how comforting it is to read Dr. Gray's books. I keep one or two handy just for reinforcement whenever I start to think those negative, crazy thoughts again. That is why I posted here in my weak moment yesterday and it did help. I did not call D.

It will get better. Chin up, girl! Rhonda

Posted by: BalancedMartian 10/30/04 01:11 PM

jillbug74,

I am sorry that you are going through such pain. It can really hurt, especially since you were together for four years and were engaged. Feeling devastated, stupid, mad, scared are all part of the emotions that come up in these situations and feeling such emotions all at once in itself can be overwhelming. I hope that you are taking care of yourself with family and friends while you go through this unfortunate situation. I hope you know there is a silver lining in all of this.

If you want a Martian perspective keep reading... otherwise stop reading at this point.

Do not take the following as a personal attack, but more as insight as to what your Martian is going through....

John Gray says the number one emotional need of a Martian is to be trusted. Your actions indicated the complete opposite to him. I hope you recognize that.

You have been given a great gift by your fiance because now you know how your fiance has been feeling about the way you react to his gestures of love. The terrible feelings that you are experiencing are what your fiance has been feeling everytime you tested his love. I am sure it really hurts. Unfortunately, for now he has run out of energy and is not willing to put up with your past anymore.

Here is the silver lining... at this moment, you are at a crossroads in your life and the road you take is up to you. You can either recognize all the pain that you have been unintentionally causing and finally decide to change how you react to people's gestures of love and from this day forward live with trust and love in your heart, or you can choose to ignore this opportunity and once again conclude that your fiance's actions simply reconfirm to you that you were "right to test it all those years" and you will continue to do so in the future.

It might help if you were to read John Gray's book "How to Get What You Want and Want What You Have".

Let me finish by saying that I know you have been through a lot and at this time I know what you need is loving support from family, friends, and everyone on this board while you work through everything. I hope everything works out for you.

Posted by: louise 117 10/30/04 03:45 PM

jillbug,

I know you're hurting so badly now, but I have to say I started to laugh when I saw the title of this topic. I'm not ALWAYS right. Just enough to be annoying. . .

Everyone's given you such great advice--please take it all (especially BalancedMartian's) to heart. You have two options right now:

1. Continue to beat yourself up for making a common and human mistake which will get you nowhere.

2. Get out of bed, take a shower, get yourself dressed and make a determination that you are wiping the slate clean and starting a new day.

Guess which option Louise recommends?

OK, it hurts, you need time to grieve. But beating yourself up isn't going to help you heal. You have learned something very important about yourself. Knowledge is power. Many people aren't self-evolved or self-reflective enough to learn from their mistakes and grow and mature. I believe you are. Get some counseling to delve into where these trust issues come from. Your insecurities have NOTHING to do with your relationship with your boyfriend. You know the M/V 90/10 theory?

Write feeling letters, journal and feel free to post here. Anywhere you want--doesn't have to be Starting Over. I can't promise you that things will work out with your finance. But I feel like if you really do the inner work to get to the root of your trust issues, you will be able to re-establish some kind of relationship with him. Anyway, I really hope that you will.

Whatever you do, don't call him. Wait a week--maybe two and then send him a BRIEF letter or e-mail apologizing for your behavior and letting him know you understand and accept why he felt the way he did and that you appreciate him for putting up with your insecurities and that you are taking action to work on your issues. And that's it. No more than a paragraph (Martian's eyes tend to glaze over when things get longer than that) and no asking/begging/pleading for a second chance, etc.

We really do care about you, jillbug. It's not about being right--it's about wanting y'all to succeed in your relationships and be happy.

Posted by: dennissj 10/30/04 03:46 PM

Jill,
This is the same issue that cropped up between me and my man. He didn't think I trusted him... well I told him I didn't trust anyone really! That that was my issue and I needed to work on it. He and I broke up a few weeks ago. He cheated on me. But we still talk... albeit awkward. But we do talk and I think if you take it easy and give it time he may find the love he had for you and regain the energy to deal with the relationship and your trust issues and whatever issues he's had. I told my Martian that I forgave him for his actions and that I was still here for him, but we're still in limbo. I know if I don't stop calling and put myself back in control I'll lose him for good. So it helps to hear your story

I know how desperate and lost you must feel right now, but we're here to listen. I understand your pain and I'm sure plenty of other women on here do too.

Sarahbell

Posted by: jillbug74 10/30/04 04:45 PM

Everyone,

Thank you so much for your responses and advise. I am sitting her crying...but they are tears of happiness for finding this site. Please keep it coming...even if it is somewhat annoying to be right all the time Louise117.

And balanced martian...thank you very much. It is good to get a martian's opinion and your words rang true. I wish I had read M/V sooner.

So...My friends are making me take your (and their) advice. I am currently dressed like a ladybug getting ready to go out the door to a Halloween festival. My only hope is I don't bring everyone down with my sadness!!

You will probably see more postings tomorrow from me..it will take a while to get all the feelings out. In the meantime, thank you for caring and please continue to give your support.

Posted by: louise 117 10/30/04 06:41 PM

That's ALMOST all the time. And it's not annoying to ME--it's annoying to others.

I'm so glad you're getting out with your friends tonight. And although I'm not happy that you are in pain, I am glad that you will be continuing to post here. Do whatever it takes--counseling, venting here, call a Coach. You will come to accept that you are worthy and deserving of a loving relationship.

Posted by: jillbug74 10/31/04 10:48 AM

Well, I went out last night and had a blast. At one point I thought I would be ok...then I woke up this morning.

It has only been a few days and it takes everything in me not to call or over his house. I miss him so much and I am so scared. What if I lost the "one"? I cannot get over the sadness and can't understand why he would just give up four years. I don't know what I will do if he is not in my life or I never speak to him again. He was my rock for so long. He was there when my dad died, when I moved to a new state and did not know ANYONE and has helped through so many tough times. I feel weak without him and weak that I want to call him more than anything right now.

When does the pain and hope stop and reality set in and I move on?

Jill

Posted by: louise 117 10/31/04 10:25 PM

Sweetie, you were with this guy for FOUR years. It's gonna take more than 4 hours, or 4 days or even 4 MONTHS to get over this. Give yourself a break and some time. I know you want the pain to stop--but it's all part of the healing process.

Maybe a call to a Mars Venus Coach could give you some exercises to work on to help you navigate the grieving process. It's very easy to get stuck in fear, anger, sadness or sorrow. You definitely don't want to do that.

Be gentle with yourself.

Posted by: jillbug74 11/01/04 10:07 AM

Thank you. But it is hard to be gentle with myself when I know that I caused much of this. We went from talking about working it out one day to it being completely over because I could not give him his space and got clingy. I was always crying and when he gave me hope I ran with it instead of realizing we were still rubberbanding. Now he doesn't want anything to do with me.

But I will take the earlier advice and wait awhile and send him an email apologizing for my actions and thanking him for putting up with my trust issues and insecurities for so long. But I cannot do it until I am ready to accept that I may not receive a response. Or if I do, I will not cling to that response as hope.

I really want him to be part of my life at some point. He was my best friend for four years. Hopefully as time goes by I will feel better...things happen for a reason, right?

I also plan to talk to someone tomorrow about my trust issues...hopefully she can also help me get through the pain.

Jill

Posted by: louise 117 11/02/04 03:13 AM

I'm so glad to hear that sweetie!



Most of the time. I think this will be a major growth experience for you and you will be a stronger, better person for finally coming to terms with these issues.

Keep posting here--we are all here to support you!

Posted by: jillbug74 11/02/04 12:09 PM

I know that it is a small amount of time compared to some of the rest of the posts. But I have made it through three days without calling. That is good for me. Today has been especially hard.

I went to vote and out of the 100 people in line of the thousands of people in my city, why did the stranger in front of me start talking to me?? After about 15 minutes I asked where she worked and found out that she works for the same small company as my ex does. She actually knows him and was happy to finally meet me but was sorry for my loss. When I got back into the car all I did was cry for an hour. I live in a pretty big city...why can't I escape the pain? Why did that have to happen? Was it some sort of sick trick of fate?

Anyhow, I was wondering for anyone out there...is it possible for two people to work things out after such a bad falling out? Is it possible that he called it totally quits because I would not give him his space and he might come back with some time?

Is it possible that things will work out or should I just cut my losses and accept that it is really over? I do not want to give up on us. I love him so much and regret all the mistakes I made. I just wish he was willing to give me another chance. But after four years..I guess he is finally over the stuff I put him thru.

Jill

Posted by: mchi 11/02/04 01:41 PM

I am so sorry you are going through this. I think that they can come back. But if you are waiting for them they will not. It is just one of those things. If you read stories on here you will see a pattern that a man can sense that you are gone and that is when he comes back. JOhn Gray has a section in Mars/Venus on a a Date on this topic. I think it is in the chapter on Getting through thte 5 Stages. BUt it says that sometimes men only truely feel the loss when you are gone. And this complicates things becasue you actually have to be gone for this to work. ANd by then the woman is often over it and is very hurt. So it usuallly doesn't work out. But even JOhn Gray and his wife broke up for a few years before getting backtogether and getting married. BUt I don't think either of them waited around for th eother one. They moved on and fate stepped in. And at that point they had both grown individually and were able to make it work.

So thinking that he could be back could be catostrophic to your moving on. So move on - grieve - and it will all work out for you. If it isn't meant to be then it isn't. You have to let go and think about your needs and try to fulfill them for yourself.

Posted by: dennissj 11/02/04 01:41 PM

Jill,
I was just reading some info. on calling coaches. It sounds like this might be a really good thing for you to do. I understand you're in pain, and sort in limbo, like maybe he'll be back. Maybe a coach can give you a third party understanding of the situation... a lot of people say it helps them!
-Sarahbell

ps: I hate running into people that know my ex, but I also live in a smaller town... it does beg the question... WHY DOES IT HAVE TO HAPPEN NOW???

Posted by: Loki 11/02/04 02:06 PM

I'm so sorry that you're going through this Jill and YES it does suck but I happen to believe in fate and as CHEESY as it sounds..if things are meant to be..it will happen

You probably hate hearing that as much as I hate saying AND as much as I hated to hear it too!

You may not be aware of my whole situation but thats ok..all you need to know is that things have a way of working out and even when they seem completely hopeless..things can change for the better

The longest breakup I've ever had with EJ lasted for 2 years..I was utterly shattered in ways that you can't even imagine and to make matters worse..well things were always a bit weird & undefined between us..(no doubt due to my intimacy/trust issues but I didnt know that then) so EJ left for someone else

A part of me knew this was coming but I felt too intimidated & scared to fight for him so I just let it go..then he moved in with her and then I moved

Neither one of us knew where the other was going..the only link between us then was his sister and my ego/pride would not let me ask about him under any circumstance

Even though my heart never let go..I decided that if I loved him..really loved him..I had to give him my blessing..give him the chance to see if this relationship would make him happy..if she could give him whatever I couldnt and I figured that was that

It was horrible..I was so sad that I literally started to have really odd experiences/dreams revolving around him..I prayed that God would erase this man from my mind & heart if it were meant to be because I couldnt take it

So one day his sister calls me & she's asking me questions and I had the oddest feeling that she wasnt asking because she wanted to know..she was asking on behalf of someone else..that was my first little ray of light

My second came when I called her house to wish her a happy birthday.
EJ & his sister are 2 years apart (shes older) but her birthday is the day after his.
He was born April 25..she was born April 26..so I called her up to see how she was..so we talked for a little bit..then she was like Hold on..then she puts EJ on the phone

It was so refreshing to hear his voice after 2 years..I cant even tell you..it was like I felt alive again or felt like I was home again then of course the wheels started to turn..wondering if he wanted to talk to me..did he ask..or did his sister just feel like we needed to speak to each other..in any case..he wanted to speak to me and that was cool

Things slowly progressed..I never got involved with him at that point because he was still involved..in my heart I knew that EJ wasnt happy not JUST because of the relationship but from many things..you dont know someone for over 9 years (I think..at that point anyway) and not know in your gut when that person is hurting even though they dont come right out & say it..I felt it..but still..I did not want to be the one he runs to just to bail him out from some other relationship..but even now that I look back..thats what I did and it wasnt long before we were back in OUR little relationship habits

I made so many mistakes because I was so happy to have him after 2 years and he was so happy that I was still receptive to him and didnt judge him for the mistakes he made..this was almost right after 9/11 so my thinking was a bit different..I kinda felt like the world was gonna end so I was like Hey EJ..unless you flew a few planes into the WTC you're ok with me!

Things did change but they also remained the same..he was definitely more honest and more..settled in a way. Like he realized alot of mistakes and realized that there arent many people out there who are true and genuine in their love for you..but I also realized that I havent changed enough.

So its possible that if this man really loves you..not much will keep him away..EJ was definitely DONE with the things that I put him through and I understood that & I felt like I deserved to be in pain because of how I treated him. I was just talking to another friend about something like this. His daughter is going through some issues concerning high school & shes resorting to physically hurting herself so he's going to take her to see someone later in the week.

I told him that that was great that someone paid enough attention to notice that she was hurting inside and needed to see someone..I told him that had anyone taken the time to notice that about me in high school..maybe things would have been different..then I had to think back..someone did notice me in high school and knew when I was hurting..and that was EJ and never once did I actually tell him how much this has meant to me, etc etc

Take this time Jill to go over the part you may have played in the relationship..thats not an easy thing to do but if you dont want to make the same mistakes..it has to be done

I know how much it hurts..I would literally break out in tears whenever anyone asked about EJ..everything reminded me of him..every song..every man on the street..it was horrible..the longest 2 years of my life but he came back..so anythings possible

Posted by: alicat02 11/02/04 02:50 PM

Jill - I'm so sorry for all the pain you're in. i haven't been with anyone for four years, but i have had two and three year relationships, and in one we were "looking at rings" although never actually engaged. so i know the pain you're in. and i'm sending you a big hug.

as far as your question, YES, it is possible for him to come back. it happened to me after much worse "fallings out." the problem there, though, is that the relationships always ended again down the road, but at least with more certainty that that was for the best.

so...i do not think that keeping that thought in the back of your mind is wrong or stupid. you never know what can happen.

however, for now, maybe it is best to say to yourself "this is over for NOW. so i'm moving ahead as if i'm moving past him. but i will be open to him if he returns in the future." closing the door for now doesn't mean closing it forever, but it gives you some relief from the anxiety of "can we work it out right now??!" i think that space and time will actually make things a lot better in your situation. i have always thought, after every single breakup i've had, that there is a chance that we would be together in the future. that thought was always comforting to me and allowed me to do what i needed to do for myself without the urgency of figuring it all out RIGHT THEN.

i'll never forget something my stepfather said after one of my painful breakups. i was obssessing about how to get him back and my stepdad said "drew is still in the world. he still exists. you still exist. neither of you are going anywhere anytime soon. give drew some space and let him figure out and feel what he needs to and just see what will happen in your life." for some reason, that reminder that he still EXISTED was helpful. he wasn't dead. if things were meant to be, they would work out. i looked at it like an adventure- "wow, it will be really interesting to see what happens from here! either we'll get back together and work through things, or i'll be swept off my feet by someone else!"

well, to fill you in, we DID get back together and it was great for a few months. then we moved in together and it all blew up! haha! but then guess what? just 4 months later, i fell in love hard and was so grateful that this new man had entered my life. so i got to experience the joy of reunion with the ex and then also the joy of finding new love when it was right.

i don't know if any of my rambling helps you. i guess the major points are: yes, he absoutely could come back. but for now it may be in your best interest (for your sanity!!) to move ahead as if it's over. just remember that ANYTHING can happen. also, he is in the world, not going anywhere, etc... give it some time and see what happens.

i'm proud of you for not calling for the past few days! i know it's hard. but it's worth it. the more you leave him alone right now, the better the outcome for BOTH of you.

hang in there!
-alison

Posted by: jillbug74 11/02/04 07:44 PM

Your responses are exactly why I am glad I found this web site. Thank you so much for your understanding...some of my friends get so frustrated with me.

It is good to hear that anything is possible. I think what bothers me the most is losing him as my best friend. We may have had problems and the excitement may not have always been there...but we always knew we were best friends. I would be happy to just get some of that back.

I bough M/V Starting Over this past weekend. It has really helped to read it..especially how to let go of certain attitudes. What really pertained to me were:

#5 - Letting go of insecurity - if there is hope for reconciliation, the best way to open that door is to close it and lock it. We need to let go of hope to help ourselves heal completely and then if the relationship comes back you can start with a new foundation.

#6 - Letting go of hoplessness - we can not act like victims (no matter what has happened) We need to be responsible for our own happiness NOW and enbrace our lives.

Reading and understanding John Gray is easy....doing it ??? Not so much at times!

But today I joined a gym with two girlfriends. I may not have B in my life anymore...but maybe I can do something to make me feel better about myself. Speaking of that...I think I will take a bubble bath, paint my toenails, pour a glass of wine and try to forget this morning and B for just a few hours.

Thanks for listening,

Jill

Posted by: jillbug74 11/03/04 10:02 AM

I guess this morning I am writing just to heal my heart. I think this will be like an onlien diary..feel free to add comments.

It seems the hardest when I wake up in the morning. At night, I am proud of what I accomplished that day and am too tired to worry about anything. But in the morning? I wake up and realize everything that happened all over again. I even have dreams about it the night before - which probably doesn't help.

I know some people think I am silly because it has not even been a week yet. I don't even really want to talk to him right now because I am not sure I can without crying. But I want to know he is thinking of me and will eventually call. If I somehow knew everything would be ok with time, I might be able to get up in the morning without crying for 30 minutes. I feel so stupid.

Things could be so much worse. We could have been already married. We could have had kids. I could have built my brand new house in both of our names. Did I ever mention that? I was ready to buy...he was not financially able to. Since we were not married yet and having some issues, I did it by myself. Later I found out that he felt left out. Lets add that to another mistake I made.

Fundementally, he is such a wonderful person and my very best friend. I miss my friend. I want my friend back....